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EP 008 / 28.04.2021


Shelley Zalis  0:06  


No handbook in any company that I have ever seen that says, miss the moments that matter in your family's life. Have you ever seen that? Course. That's perception, perception becomes reality, we need to sneak out. We shouldn't put pictures of our children up because we'll be distracted at work or you know, so I think that don't let perception create the reality because it is definitely we are missing the mark many times. The second is I have a no regret policy, I never want to look back at life and say I should have what it could have. So do not miss the moments that matter. Because I can guarantee you nobody at work will ever remember that meeting you missed or the trip you didn't take, but the things you prioritise and focus on. Those people will always remember those really important priorities.


Farah Nanji  0:57  


You're listening to the mission makers show, a podcast that inspires humans to get into the mindset of success. My name is Farah Nanji, and I'm the founder of a business in the Motorsports industry that explores leadership lessons from things like Formula One. I'm also a DJ and music producer in the underground electronic scene, and a public speaker on key topics like resilience, building high performance teams, overcoming learning difficulties and stimulating creativity. And to tie it all together, I love writing thought provoking content as a journalist for these industries, which is so unique in themselves. On this show, I'm sitting down with some of the most inspiring and driven people I've met around the world to talk about their processes, their failures, the lessons they've learned, and how they are truly making an impact on this world.


Hi, guys, and welcome back to episode eight of the mission makers podcast. Today we're joined by Shelley Zalis, an internationally renowned entrepreneur, Forbes journalist, Ted speaker and champion of gender equality through her initiative, the female quotient. Shelly joins us from New York today, and she shares light on how she's been rewriting the rules of corporate America, innovating so many solutions for several fortune 500 companies to advance gender equality across many, many industries. Shelley has connected more than 18,000 women in business who are transforming workplace culture, at signature pop up experiences at the female quoting lounge, which has become an incredible gathering place for leaders at all levels in events such as the World Economic Forum. So just before we begin, if you're interested in watching the video version of this podcast, head over to YouTube and type in Shelley's Zalis mission makers to see the show. And if you're interested in some really cool rewards like DJ lessons, signed books from our guests, and exclusive merchandise, head over to to check out how you can access these exclusive rewards. And thank you to everyone who subscribed to me in writing and reviewing our show, it truly makes a difference in getting the show discovered. So if you haven't already, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and help take us to the next level. Shelley, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you doing?


Shelley Zalis  3:13  


I work so excited to be here. I'm in New York today. And you're in London. So just feeling like we're together yet we're so far apart is always a great thing.


Farah Nanji  3:21  


Definitely. Definitely. Well, thank you again, for joining us, we're really looking forward to sharing all these amazing things that you've been doing for so long turning the wheel for women, as it were. So before we go into more of your journey, I want to start off by taking you back to the beginning. I know that growing up you are wonderful girls. So looking back and reflecting on what's been a remarkable life. Do you think that there was anything about the sisterhood that you experienced that went on to inform the life and the work that you currently do?


Shelley Zalis  3:50  


You know, I actually think so. And I didn't think about it until very recently being one of four girls. Number one, my parents raised us to respect and value one another. We are also similar in our morals and our values, yet we're all different. And so realising that our differences is our greatest strength, and that my mother really instilled confidence in us at a very young age to believe in ourselves. And she says, If you don't believe in yourself, no one else will. And so no matter what we always felt so beautiful. And that's when I coined the phrase confidence is beautiful, really understanding that I grew up with unconditional love and acceptance and pushing us all to be the best that we could be. and believing that about ourselves. Number one, the second which I found really shocking. I must have been 30 years old. I'm now 59 My mother was the senior policy advisor for Pete Wilson, the former governor of California, and she was the first in the world to create the first conference for women in the state of California. And so now looking back at what we do, where we do pop ups, bringing conscious leaders and women supporting women together, I think wow, that My script impacted me, because that's what I do today. So who knew at the time the impact that would have on me today but tremendous impact of support, love, hope, life and confidence really.


Farah Nanji  5:17  


That's a beautiful message. And so talking about that the meaning behind your name, Shelley is very peaceful translating to Meadow on a riverbank. But what I found really interesting was that this name is almost exclusively only now given to females after historically being a male name. Do you feel that in some ways, it was then a subconscious calling for you to champion the level playing field for women?


Shelley Zalis  5:40  


No, you know what, I had no idea that I was going to be in the business of equality. I was in the business of market research NAB in the business of equality. I was the only female CEO top 25 in my category my entire career. But I really never thought about a gender issue or a gender bias, even though I am sure if I go back to my my 20s and 30s, I'm probably owed a tonne of money from the corporations that I worked for, because I never thought to question was I paid differently, you know, that men for the same job. But what I did know, early on in my career was I thought differently, I acted differently. I believed in the power of relationships, not just being an order taker, not just doing a deal. But knowing people, you know, business is not about a corporation, it's about people adding trust and creating that relationship. So I always knew that I thought differently. But I also knew I was never in charge. And so my way was never going to be the new way. I had to follow legacy leadership. But I also never thought about Shelley or Sheldon. And you know, when you think about it, you're supposed to change your name on a resume, like fake them out and think they're hiring good guys, so you have an increased chance of getting hired. And like, why I'm gonna fake My name go in as a man. So I have a higher likelihood of being hired and then say, surprise, look what you got, instead of getting our differences, to stop being invisible, invisible, but becoming way more visible. You know, why can't we start showcasing the feminine with the collaborative, the emotive, the nurturing, the empathy, that passion, that compassion, the resilience, all of these things? Why are we hiding that? And so I am Shelly, I'm happy for it to be a female in any, you know, country language that we have it and not pretend that I am not who I am or hide what I think are the greatest qualities of leadership today.


Farah Nanji  7:39  


Definitely, it's about being authentic. And in particular, in a time of crisis. The skills that you mentioned are the ones that, you know, we desperately need as a planet. So, early on, you attended Barnard College in New York, which is of course famous for being founded in response to Columbia University to refuse women refusal to admit women, sorry. So what do you remember about these University days? And how do you think the education system matches up with the rest of society in the way that they apply the principles of equality?


Shelley Zalis  8:11  


You know, it's interesting, when I went to Barnard, it was Barnard College for Women, Columbia College for men of Columbia University. But you could choose your courses on the Columbia campus or on Barnard campus. So it wasn't like we were just on Barnard campus. And so I found myself at the age of 20, choosing to live on Columbia campus to take all my courses on Columbia campus. And I really did not understand the power of being part of a school for women, I did not understand that at the time. And how you really can discover what makes you passionate what you're passionate about, and follow your heart, you know, choose the courses that you want, you know, at the time, with STEM science, technology, engineering, and math, which when I was, you know, in college was mainframe computers, it was not PCs, and little Macs, we did not have this at all. And had I been in the class filled with women in STEM, maybe there would have been more women in college going into STEM careers, because a lot of the women don't want to go into STEM because it's filled with men, and it's fairly intimidating. So only now after I graduated from university, did I understand the power, the potential, the opportunity, and me being surrounded by women in a university? I did not take advantage of it, which is pretty funny. And unfortunate at the same time.


Farah Nanji  9:40  


Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But things obviously changed massively. So you know, it's interesting that you had that you weren't really thinking about it at the time, but you've now formed such a big part of what you're doing. 


Shelley Zalis  9:53  


You know it now it's Barnard College for Women, Columbia, co Ed college, and so Going to Barnard is now a choice you opt in for, you know, going to an all female school at my time, it was a default. Now, the choice. So I think that that's also a really big nuance because you could choose as a woman to go to Columbia, because it's co Ed, or to make a conscious choice and go to Barnard, which is all women.


Farah Nanji  10:22  


Yeah, definitely you didn't have a choice? Hmm. And I mean, education systems obviously, changing so rapidly right now, as we speak, what are your What are your thoughts on that? 


Shelley Zalis  10:34  


You know, I say it all the time. And I believe this, I don't think it's in a textbook. So I don't think the script is in the textbook, you know, we're flipping the script and flipping the balance completely by changing the equation by choice. It is definitely not in the textbook, the things that I learned the most at Columbia University, was the experiential meeting the most interesting people from different parts of the world. And one day I would walk into the dorm and hear a pianist, like playing a Beethoven's, you know, concerto or, I would go on the quad. And here's some orating Shakespeare, or, you know, there were athletes, there were scientists there. There were people from all over the globe, from all parts of the world. That's what I found the greatest life lessons for me. Were those experiences learned? You know, I studied psychology, I did understand, I learned about behavioural psychology, how you reward good behaviour. And I think that's very interesting today is how do we create systemic change, and reward? respectful behaviour, we're not even talking about good behaviour, be respectful and bring everyone you know, that's what inclusion is all about. And that is not something that you can define, oh, we're going to have a culture of inclusion. No, you can't say that. It's not in a textbook. You need to experience that these changes come from the heart, not from the head. So I know, I learned a lot. I think education is so important today. I also think that contextualization with education matters a lot. So if you're going to university or the business school, having an internship, a fellowship, at the same time, helps you process what you're learning from a textbook and apply it to real life examples. So I think that's a very good hybrid combination, which in COVID, we're starting to see a lot in person classes, if that's happening, but also virtual courses, and the flexibility to pick and have access to more courses, I think, is a great way to dimensionalize a human, you know, a human being,


Farah Nanji  12:45  


Yeah, definitely, I can definitely relate and resonate with that, because my university was I think 90% of our students were International. And that's the best way that I learned about my course was Global Business Management, but actually the people was what really gave me the insights, you know, which you can't learn unless you go and live in all of those countries and, and interact with all of those different people about truly how the world is globalised and how people do what different cultures you know, have, and also what you're sort of saying in there about the experience, because yeah, definitely like it, the best way is to take what you're passionate about, and use your university as a time to, to just experience and make those mistakes. Because once you commit yourself after uni, it's harder to, to go back and then and then switch gears and change. So I love that. And I think Yeah, I hope that's the way that you know, the education system will change from this crazy time that we find ourselves in. So


Shelley Zalis  13:41  


I just want to go back because this is such an important point of, I'm calling it proximity ship where you know, we often judge a book by its cover, instead of spending five minutes with someone you don't know. And I think this was what my greatest benefit of going to university, leaving my home, being independent having to learn how to be independent, depend on myself, bring others into my circle, you create these, you know, families, but it was spent five minutes for someone you don't know, and you are going to learn so much. They might not be your best friend, they might be your best friend, but you're going to grow, you're going to evolve, you're going to stretch and so you don't even necessarily need to go to all these different parts of the world. But you need to know the cultural nuances of people from around the world and oftentimes you find that we share some most of the same values. And then it's that point of differentiation that if you embrace it, and bring it in and surround yourself with people not like you that's when you look back when they one day say well look how far I've come look how much I've grown look up far stretched myself push myself and and my, you know, my head like blows up with amazing new dimensions that I never would have experienced before


Farah Nanji  15:05  


100% 100% is that we are so different and diverse as a species. And, you know, we cannot just surround ourselves with the same and the internet is really one of the best, you know things about this particular time too, to have that school of thought as well. And actually, it's, you know, sometimes it's, it's scary to think, let me talk to an absolute stranger for five minutes to break that comfort zone, you know, and it's, it's so important to challenge yourself and, and find commonalities with, you know, people with it with humans essentially. So I love that, and I definitely agree. So after, you know, a few years of actually working in research where you were so successful, you decided to switch gears and set up the female criterion to advance equality in the workplace. So talk to me a little bit about that, what was the sort of lightbulb moment that led you towards spearheading this movement?


Shelley Zalis  15:58  


you know, it really happened by accident, I sold my company, I'm the pioneer of online research. So if you've ever taken a survey on the internet, sorry, not sorry. But I am the mother of invention. And I knew that I said, it's very lonely at the top, when you are the only woman you're breaking the barriers. That's how I got my nickname, Chief troublemaker, breaking all the rules that make no sense creating new ones so that I could thrive in the workplace and get past the messy middle and rise to leadership. To do that, for me, I needed to start my own company. I sold that company to the third largest research company in the world. And once again, I'm one of two women on a public Board of 25. And, you know, knowing that, you know, I've been told there's no room for motion at the boardroom, or I pushed people out of their comfort zone or you know, all of those things. And, you know, you have an option of agreeing and becoming what you're not, or breaking the rules like I did, and creating the new ones so that I could bring my best self to the workplace. And also lead by example, like flipped legacy leadership, I want to create a new form of what we believe leaders should be. And so it really happened by accident. And I talk about all of my most important moves have been heartbeat moments, not cognitive, not rational, not justified. But you follow your heart, female intuition, all of those things that, you know, we talk about all the time. And I just wanted to bring the research industry into technology. I wanted to go to CES, the Consumer Electronics Show. In Las Vegas, I heard there was 150,000 people less than 3% women, intimidating me in a market research conference anywhere in the world. I've been in market research. 35 years, put me in technology, I know no one. And so I have two options: don't go or do what I did to invite a few girlfriends, and I told them to invite their friends. 24 hours later, 50 women showed up, and we walked the floor together. Two remarkable things happened. One every guy's had turned like where the heck that all you women come from. And that's when we coined the phrase power of the pack. A woman alone is power. collectively we have impact. It was just this moment where you walk in and you just feel like you dominate. You own the room. We owned the room as a pack. And the second was I was surrounded by people just like me work life balance issues, perfection issues, imposter syndrome, all those things that we struggle with too bossy, too emotional to this to the end, we finally said, You know what, if there's a boys club, let's have a girls lounge, the opposite of boys girl, the opposite of club is lounge. And, you know, Let's march forward. Well, since then we've connected 50,000 women across every industry across 100 countries. Women at the beginning were like, but we're not girls. I said have you ever heard of a man object to being a boy in the boys club? Never. Why are we creating our own double standards? And that's how the female quotient was born. It just happened from a moment to a movement. Now we've evolved girls down to a quality lounge so that it's a leadership challenge to close the gaps, not a female issue or a female challenge. And you know, we are helping fortune 500 close the equity gaps and really advance all women in the workplace from where they are to where they want to go and help them get there.


Farah Nanji  19:19  


That's incredible. In that journey, what have been some of the hardest types of people or mindsets that you've encountered? To change, you know, to change perspectives.


Shelley Zalis  19:31  


Your change happens if you choose to make change, we can know, we have historically been admiring the problems for so long talking about what we're going to do signing pledges of petitions. To me, that's a surrogate for not doing anything, it's about action. And I don't care if it's a little step or a big step but keep making steps forward. And so you know, the mindset of those that are this defensive that I'm doing the best, you know, change is really hard and a lot People don't want to change because there's you know, we always say you got to fail sometimes to grow, right failure leads to your greatest successes. A lot of people are afraid of failure and, and failure failures, making a mistake. You know, sometimes when you're building something that doesn't exist, you have to try new things, you might be wrong, but you also might be right. And so I think that that's, you know, for me, a change of choice. And if you are not intentional, and you are not willing, you are not willing to assess where you are, where you want to go, and how you're going to get there and hold yourself responsible and accountable. Don't bother, because you're not going to change. So it really is a mindset of openness, of listening to hear not listening to respond. I heard that the other day, you know, that's how real change happens not when you just are sitting in status quo going in circles, but you're pushing yourself onto the fringe, to that barrier, we're a scary part, right? But it's where true change, you know, happens, it's not going to happen from the inside. It's got to happen from the outside closing, what doesn't work, opening a new door of opportunity, but also potentially of trial.


Farah Nanji  21:13  


So how would you advise leaders in organisations when there is that resistance to change from from people within their own in within their own teams,


Shelley Zalis  21:21  


you got to hold people accountable, I think we need accountability for change. You know, we're all about closing the equity gap. So parity policy pipeline, parody the wage gap. If you are aware that there's a gap, and you have intention, and consciousness to close it, then what is holding you back, it's going to cost you some money, it's going to pinch you a little bit. But as soon as you do it like Marc Benioff, that becomes your new norm, you're setting yourself up with a new standard policies, we need to really very consciously, proactively think about the policies and benefits in the workplace that will allow everyone to bring their best self, their true self for wholesale people. You know, we talked about flexibility and COVID, we see that flex schedule is working really well. But it's working well, because men and women are all at home, when we go back to the office, not back to work, we're all working harder than ever before. But when we go back to a physical office, if we have flexibility now, oh, we have elective flexibility schedules for who's going to take women in primary caregivers, ding dong, ding, we're gonna get dinged again. Right. So policies and benefits, they're being very conscious of what we need to ensure that everyone is treated, not only equally, but with equity, because we all start in different places. And then when we look at the pipeline, you know, we've been filling the pipeline, but how do we create the pathway to leadership, which is where we typically see women and women of colour disproportionately being impacted, you know, at the primary caregiving, you know, stages of their lives.


Farah Nanji  22:56  


So It's about consciousness. Absolutely. And we all have, you know, equity in this, in this in this equation at the end of the day. And we all deserve that equality and to be deserving It is one thing, but as you said, it takes, you know, small steps, big steps, but it takes a step, you know, to move forward and change things. So talking about the female proteam. What, what role does branding play in sort of empowering the mission behind what you're doing? Well,


Shelley Zalis  23:25  


the name really came, you know, because we always hear about the intelligence quotient IQ, then we start talking about the emotional quotient EQ. Now we talk about the female quotient Fq, when you add more women to any equation, there's a return on equity. And so this is really what we're all about advancing all women and closing the equity gaps. And it's not that hard. And especially when you just put it out there. And we'll see. I mean, there's a 30% threshold rule, at the 30% level, that's when we transform culture. And so if you truly want to feel comfortable in an environment, you have to be able to not only have representation, but you need to have reflection, you need to feel like there's a lot of people like you, not everyone, but you need to feel comfortable that there are others that are like you inside of an organisation. That's what culture happens. And so it's not about leadership from top down. Culture is something that is shared with values of the people that make up the culture, people make up a culture. A brick wall is not culture, the name of a company is not a culture, it is the heart and soul of the people inside that all come together and play as a team, you know, value add, collective team.


Farah Nanji  24:48  


Definitely. So what are some of the ways that you guys are keeping this culture alive in a virtual world right now?


Shelley Zalis  24:54  


I mean, we have check-ins every week. So our whole team is getting together and sometimes it's not Just about talking about work, it's talking about how you are. And you know, one of the things that we spend a lot of time talking about, it's, it's okay to not be okay. You know, we all put these walls up to, you know, hold it all in and pretend everything's fine. You know, this has been, of course, an unprecedented year, it's been really a tough year. And, you know, we can all stay strong until we're not until you fall apart. So, you know, we really encourage everyone to take the time that they need, you know, I can't force anyone to take time that they need that has to come from within, you know, we talked about, you know, oxygen on an aeroplane, you got to put yourself first. So we need everyone to be healthy for themselves before they can, you know, obviously, help others. And cut out some zooms, you know, do walk about, go back to the phone, walk around your block, smell the roses outside and get some fresh air every once in a while, because I think we're all at zoom fatigue right now. And make sure you don't take, don't assume that someone doesn't want to hear from you. If you know that there's someone that is living alone and dealing with all this by themselves, pick up the phone and just say hi, whether they want to chat or not let them know you're there. I think that goes a long way to supporting one another, which we all need right now. So we encourage that within, you know, our company, and you know, we're a company of 99% women. So we have like a very nurturing, everyone is a mom, even though they're not all moms, they don't have children, a lot of them, but we all take care of each other. We're one big family, the good, bad, and the ugly, we look after each other.


Farah Nanji  26:41  


That's incredible. I love that. And that leads me quite nicely to my next question, which we sort of talked about earlier. But now knowing that sort of 99% of your company is female led, what is this sort of crisis? What have you seen? What do you think are some of the key things that have stood out to you about the power of feminine leadership? And how that might be helping sort of transform or transcend? Let's say this this time?


Shelley Zalis  27:09  


Yeah, it's a really good question. Well, we see the countries that are actually the most proactive with COVID that have done the best or countries run by women. And so if you think about the feminine qualities, compassion, empathy, passion, resilience, nurturing, those are qualities that are caregiver qualities, and caregiving is still by default, predominantly women. For the most part, when men are primary caregivers, they will have the same challenges. But those are the greatest qualities of leadership today. And those are qualities of caregiving, and yet we're losing our best leaders to caregiving. So what we are finding, if you actually Google Now, the best qualities of leadership, you will see empathy coming up, as one, empathy and compassion is top 10. I don't think we've ever seen that before. So we need to make those invisible skills quite visible. Those are the soft skills that are hard to quantify. And yet, because they're not measurable, they're not the masculine, decisive, linear, aggressive, analytic, they are the soft skills. And so how do we quantify the value of soft skills and hold people accountable for those skills? And by the way, even start interviewing with those skills in mind, I'd love to see a job description. We're looking for an empathetic, charismatic, collaborative, visionary leader that can deliver a great ROI. How about that? Pick me, I'll take that any day. So these are the kinds of things that we're working on, to create a shift in expectation, and also to create measurement for accountability, and to hold everyone in an organisation responsible for creating the culture that they want to belong to.


Farah Nanji  28:55  


Absolutely, and I think this time is really, you know, enlightened people as to why most C suite leaders value those soft skills more than any of the hard skills that we can develop. Because that's what will carry us through and allow us to survive and thrive, you know, particularly in this moment. You were at Davos when I was there in 2020, just before the world went into an absolute meltdown. So what was that like for you? I mean, did you feel any sort of sense of the crisis happening at that point? No.


Shelley Zalis  29:26  


We had no idea that we came back like, I'm like God, we had no idea. There were no indicators. There was a little buzz that it was going around, but like that's not going to come to us, not not affecting us. We didn't. It was not a conversation, actually in Davos. I think there was a little buzz but nobody in a million years predicted this up. Well, there were some people that predicted it, but it was not chatter at


Farah Nanji  29:54  


Davos. Yeah, it's incredible to think that you know, as we're there 50th anniversary of the World Economic Forum, I'm talking about the skills, the changing world and then boom, two months later, you know, this all just sort of happened. It's just and we haven't, you know, been able to meet again since then, which is crazy. But I do hope that we do get to come back to that to there and


Shelley Zalis  30:15  


having that third week in January 2022, we will see you there.


Farah Nanji  30:21  


I say On the flip side, obviously, we can't forget men who do play a big part in facilitating this much needed change. And I'm sure you get asked this a lot. But what sort of message do you think it's helpful for us as women to put across to our male counterparts be our husbands of hotness? sons? Brothers?


Shelley Zalis  30:39  


Yeah. First of all, number one, equality starts at home. So partnership shared, if you have a double income family, and you raise your children, a partnership starts at home equality starts at home sharing the responsibility starts at home if you want to have two successful working parents. So I think that it really is shared parenting is very important, number one, number two, gender equality is not a female issue. It's a social and economic issue. So I don't even refer to it as when people talk about male allies. We don't need male allies. Its leadership leadership, though, is by default, men. caregiving is by default women. So I just talked about this leadership issue. We don't need male allies, we need leadership activists. I don't care if you're a man or woman, if you are leading the charge, where you get to make the choices and the decisions, then I hold you responsible, I hold me responsible, I hold us all responsible. So I think lexicon matters, it is not about male allies, it is about leadership activists, it is truly about all of us taking responsibility for the changes that we want to see. And, and showing men and women that we all can be successful, as well, in the workplace holding the same jobs, it just does require a little more flexibility for primary caregivers that tend to carry an unequal or as Eve Roski says, The Invisible work that is not visible, we need to make it visible and then accommodate around it so that people could thrive at home and at work.


Farah Nanji  32:23  


Definitely, and actually, as you're saying that, you know, it sort of really struck a chord with me, because that's literally what our podcast is about the name mission makers, we're all you know, we all have a mission, we all have some level of responsibility and leadership within our own homes or professional environments. And yeah, it's very, very interesting and true, what you say. And so, how much of future progress Do you believe will come down to people sort of recognising the similarities of our struggles, as opposed to focusing, you know, we seem to be able as well focusing on things that separate us, but how much do you think it is really about recognising that we, as humans, as you said, have shared values? There's not a there's not that much, it makes us so different in the end?


Shelley Zalis  33:08  


I honestly think it's not hard at all, because I don't think it's about people seeing the value. I think it's about closing the gaps and filling the pipelines and having more of everyone. And once you do that, that's where impact that's where you see change. Closing the pay gap. If companies created a free tool with city, it's an advancing equality calculator, where leaders C suite leaders could put three numbers in the average salary, men, women, what if you'll find the Delta, then you have a choice, do you want to close it or not? The policies and the benefits, we have the choice to create new policies and benefits that life stages accommodate. They create proximity ships, so people get to know one another. We can share the values looking at complimentary collective value systems. That's what makes it so we can look at the pipeline, fill it but also create the education to upskill. The benefits to upskill to get to leadership. It's not that complicated. It really is what we keep driving, it's called choice. Everything in life is choice and prioritisation and focus. Focus on what you truly want to see the changes to be there's so much junk in the trunk. We have so much junk in the trunk, but we keep adding more junk to the trunk because it's easier to add them to take something out. Right? None of us like to throw things out. Throw out the junk in the trunk, so you have room to put new stuff in. And don't be afraid to try new things. You know, this is the perfect time unprecedented times mean we create new precedents. Like this is a great moment we talked about self reflection for me. It's a great moment and it's a hot moment. doesn't need to be 10 years. It's a hot moment. clothes, get rid of the junk. We know what we want to get rid of clothes. We're not wearing it in the closet, throw it out, give it away, give it to people that need it. Get rid of that. Number one. Now you have all this freedom, and money, and resources. So pick and choose your priorities, focus, be conscious, close, not hard.


Farah Nanji  35:18  


I agree it's, you know, it comes down to have, it's a choice. And we've made it so much more complicated than it needs to be to just make the easy and simple choices by adding on more stuff as you mentioned here. So you, you famously spoke about wanting to break the rules of corporate America in a TED talk to rewrite the rules of the workplace? What were some of those first three rules that you wanted to break? And do you believe that we have to master the rules first in order to break them?


Shelley Zalis  35:47  


No, I think when you master them, they're harder to break. I think that it's not even about undoing. You know, people talk about rewriting history, we cannot rewrite history. But we can pick it up now and move forward. And not necessarily, you know, legacy runs faster than reality. So if we keep repeating history, then nothing is going to change. I mean, you know, Albert Einstein the same perspective that, you know, gotcha, there's the same one that's gonna get you out unless you bring a different perspective to the table. So I think that, you know, this is a perfect moment, to not even break the rules, but to write the new ones forward, you know, right forward, and they might not all be right, but they will be new and evolved. And so I think that that's the only way you get out of status quo land and, and not to get out for sake's sake, to get out because it's necessary, because what we've been doing has not been working. If it's been working, don't break it to break it. You know, being a troublemaker is not fun. You know, someone called me that good troublemaker. So I felt like I said good, instead of the bad witch, but the rules are just, you know, rules that were written over 100 years ago by men for you know, for men when women just weren't in the workplace, and we're just playing catch up. But we're never going to catch up, the only way we'll catch up is to close the door of an equity, open the new door of opportunity, and move forward with positivity and productivity


Farah Nanji  37:13  


Definitely. So when you are in that time, space, what were some of the key things that you wanted to just break out of?


Shelley Zalis  37:21  


First of all, celebrate family. I mean, I can't even tell you how many times we will sneak out to go to the kids soccer game. But you look around, everyone was doing that. I can tell you that it is just not in the textbook, employee handbook. No handbook in any company that I've ever seen that says, miss the moments that matter in your family's life. Have you ever seen that course on, that's perception, perception becomes reality, we need to sneak out we shouldn't put pictures of our children up because we'll be distracted at work or you know, so I think that don't let perception create the reality because it is definitely we are missing the mark many times. The second is I've no regret policy, I never want to look back in life and say shoulda woulda coulda. So do not miss the moments that matter. Because I can guarantee you nobody at work will ever remember that meeting you missed or the trip you didn't take, but the things you prioritise and focus on. Those people will always remember those really important priorities. And then you know, life stage accommodates, I never wanted to be the exception to every rule, I want to create the new norm. And so if you build around someone that is a primary caregiver, that is, you know, really incredibly talented, passionate, purpose driven, you can make anything work. So you know, don't just put everyone in the same box of a nine to five employee. It really is about time management, time blocking. And the same thing with five dimensions in our life, our family, our career, our community, our friends. The fifth we forget about is ourselves and in COVID homeschooling, if we're a primary caregiver, you can't do all those things, sometimes equally, you're going to have to pick and choose and time block according to your life stage. So I think those are really big things that we need to take into account.


Farah Nanji  39:15  


Definitely. And until we have our TED Talks, how was the whole experience for you?


Shelley Zalis  39:22  


It's so funny, you asked me that. So you know, I speak around the world. So TED Talk should not be scary. It was quite scary for me mainly because you've got to limit your, your thing to eight minutes or 211 minutes, however many minutes it was I don't remember 11 minutes or something. And there's no script. And there's, there's no, you they've rehearsed for a really long time. I'm not that person. I'm ad libbing. I just go follow my heart. So little, little scary. Especially when I told him I'm not going to rehearse and then I realised I'm 59, it was when I was in the height of menopause, it was a taboo topic, menopause. But it is so true. So we need to talk about it. And I was taking some hormone pills to balance my hormones, but it makes your mouth really dry. So I stopped taking the medicine for like a week, so that my mouth wouldn't be dry. I get all the stage, and you're standing in a red circle. And of course, I have no notes. And I just have a timer, which is good standing this or no water, you're not allowed water on the stage. And my whole thing was around breaking the rules. I get up there for the first six, seven minutes, you know, it's I'm talking about breaking the rules. And then my tongue got stuck to the roof of my mouth. My mouth was so dry. The hormones were kicking it. And so I look at the audience. And I was thinking, I have to say, this is a menopause moment. But I thought, oh my god, they're going to pull me off the stage. So instead, I say, Well, I'm about to break one of the biggest tech rules in history. I don't even think this has ever been done. But I really need some water. And so I walk off the stage, I get some water, I come back. And I'm like, now that's called breaking the rules. is pretty funny. So it was a little intimidating, I have to say, but I'm happy I did it.


Farah Nanji  41:23  


Yeah, for sure. For sure I can. I did a TED talk once as well. And it's interesting what you say about the preparation, because one of the crazy things that I found out was that I only had six weeks to prepare for my talk. And I did, did you have a long time? Or was it quite rare? 


Shelley Zalis  41:39  


I had six weeks, but who has six weeks? You know? You keep having to go through it. And I just did not have that bandwidth. Yeah, I didn't have that anxiety. But I probably had the anxiety that I didn't do the six week prep, even though I'm better not preparing. But you think you're supposed to prepare for the whole six weeks they give you or whatever?


Farah Nanji  42:04  


Yeah, I mean, what did you write? Did you write anything down? Or did you completely free flowing freestyle? freestyle?


Shelley Zalis  42:11  


I think I gave him like three charts or something. I don't, I think it was like three charts. It was nothing. What was your talk on?


Farah Nanji  42:18  


It was about. So the talk is meant to be 18 minutes maximum and 18 minutes. My talk was about rewiring the brain through learning difficulties because I have dyspraxia which is a motor coordination delay. And funnily enough, I'm doing music and med school, which are too heavily coordinated things. And this is really, it was fascinating. And actually, it was in Luxembourg, Luxembourg in the Philharmonic Hall. So when I found out it was going to be in this Philharmonic place, I was like, you know, I mean, can I can I can I do a sort of music performance around it too, you know, because it's one thing talking about how can music help you blah, blah, blah, but then to really actually put into practice what you know, been saying, and so they allowed me to do a performance, but of course, that meant having to cut down even more of the speech. Prior to that, and, and it was a very it, you know, as you say, you know, you're a public speaker, you're you're used to stages and audiences, but I don't think much can prepare you because to stage like that


Shelley Zalis  43:21  


What did you compose?


Farah Nanji  43:26 


What I did was, I bought my, my machine drum set, an electronic drum set, and I had a song that I had composed. I have to send it to you. If there is a very calming sort of meditation it has all these amazing Indian instruments. Like why would i


Shelley Zalis  43:43  


I would love that, we have a dinner in India coming up.


Farah Nanji  43:46  


Oh, wow. That's amazing. Are you into that?


Shelley Zalis  43:49  


That'd be amazing.


Farah Nanji  43:50  


For sure that that sounds incredible. I'm very inspired by like the Indian instruments. So I use this knee instrument and tar. I absolutely love the sitar as well. So, you know, just really mystical and very calming and trans transcendent instruments, but then backed by very hypnotic electronic beats. You know, and so yeah, it was very, it was very, it was so I was more nervous performing the music actually, which actually is surprising because I DJ everywhere. You know, it's just not, it's that you do get slightly nervous for performances, because we're all human. But, you know,


Shelley Zalis  44:23  


This was also a new calculation for you.


Farah Nanji  44:25  


Exactly. And it was all you know, and I think because it was in Philharmonic Hall. I think that that added to the whole level of pressure. But something that I've sort of read prior to, you know, doing the prep for this talk was like TED speakers practice. Every one minute of speech. They practice that one minute for an hour. And I was like, this is I don't have you know, 18 hours to practice. I haven't even written anything. But anyway, it all worked out fine in the end, and once you watch it, definitely, I think once you get into that flow, that's it. You just have to get into that flow state. That's important this morning. Like you said, if you need water or break the rules, I mean, that's, that's crazy.


Shelley Zalis  45:05  


See, this is another perception reality. Like whoever said you can't have water on the stage, but no speaker ever has. So I think we look at the predecessor and just assume, like, I think maybe that's I never thought about that. Perception is assumption because it's what was done before you just look at who was there what they did. So then you just perpetuate that. And that's how you perpetuate sameness. Because you look at what was done before and you just copy it, because that's what you're supposed to do.


Farah Nanji  45:38  


It's really interesting that you say that because I actually had the guy who coordinated the TEDx in Luxembourg, he's actually a public speaking coach, funnily enough. And one of the key things that he said on my podcast is that being a communications case is that literally perception is reality that forms our reality, but it's not the truth. And you've just enhanced that by saying perception is based on assumption. And it's it's, it's just so it's completely true. We,


Shelley Zalis  46:04  


We were deceived based on assumption and based on what your predecessor did, because you there, wow, all this comes to like, walk in their shoes, you need to walk in their shoes. Well, I would say I don't want to walk in the man shoe ahead of me and shoes are ugly, be I'm way happier in high heels. If at some point, you need to break protocol. Now that's where Chuck troublemaker content breaks protocol, if you want to create something new, you can't do the same thing. You've got to break protocol. You walk in someone else's shoes, you're gonna walk the way they did it. Right. So I think that's where all these things now come from.


Farah Nanji  46:48  


Right? And you can't ever really walk in someone else's shoes anyway. I mean,


Shelley Zalis  46:52  


Authentically and consistently. No.


Farah Nanji  46:54  


Yeah, exactly. Like, Bob's official, we do like to get a bit deep on this show. And so we'd like to ask him next is, so here we are, in the UK, we've had a lot in the last couple of years about sort of LA and California and the things that are happening there. And I know you've just come flown into New York from LA. So what's life really like, though, you know, in LA at the moment?


Shelley Zalis  47:24  


Well, you know, things are opening up again. So you know, it's been a little sterile, a little a little Stark, but the beauty of Los Angeles or California, you can walk outside when you need a moment of, you know, just nature, life, right, it's not cold weather all the time. So that has been a real benefit. But, you know, we are, you know, economically it's been really challenging the impact on women and women of colour, from shelter, food, jobs, you know, we are affected, as you know, other states are and as other countries are, but things are now opening up the riots were very difficult. In LA, I mean, we've had some tough moments. And yet, I feel that people are so excited to be around other people again, you know, even though everyone's being safe, but movie theatres have started opening up, spas are opening up, gyms are opening up, restaurants are opening up, schools are happening. So that's helping a lot, especially with primary caregivers with young children, that they can send their kids back to school, because that has been a really big barrier for women staying in the workplace during COVID. It's been a barrier for women in the workplace before COVID. But with COVID, it has really taken us to another level of you know, an


Farah Nanji  48:52  


all time low. Yeah, that's, that's been so tough on so many parents everywhere. And, you know, and for the children as well, just to not have my parents run a Montessori school here in England. And when you sort of see because we've, we had a couple of you know, breaks with COVID not being able to open and then when you see the children come back, and you know, they're in their first sort of five years of life, and they're learning about the world. And you know, and they're scared of humans, like they come into school, and they're literally scared of other humans, which is just so sad. To see that, you know, to see that happening. But yeah, I hope, I hope you know, hope this is the I hope this is the worst as it's gonna get. And I think things are definitely moving forward, which is great. Hey, you, we hope you're enjoying today's episode. We're on a serious mission here to create one of the world's best podcast series, and we'd be so grateful if you could support us in any way by becoming a patron of the show. There's a tear to every level from early bird tears where you get downloads to all my music with some super cool ninja stickers to our VIP mission, make it here's where you get epic rewards like exclusive footage. It never gets add the chance to submit questions to our guests with signed copies of books from them, deejay lessons, one to one coaching and a whole load of super cool ninja measure making merchandise, you can start supporting us for less than what it costs you to fill up your car for a month by simply heading over to www forward slash mission makers. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the show. So talking about families, and we started off, you know, talking at the show or talking about your sisters and stuff. And so I'm very curious now that you know your mom, what sort of similarities Do you see in your own parenting style? From how your mum taught you and your father and how do you sort of differ?


Shelley Zalis  50:43  


Oh, what a good question. If you know what I am. Being a mom is just who I am, a part of who I am. So I don't compartmentalise you have one life, you can't divide your life between being a mom and then being a CEO. I am one human, that does it all my way. That is the most important thing that I needed to get comfortable with is, I'm not going to follow up with my predecessors or women that were not working, because if they have a lot of responsibility, but a very different kind of responsibility than that I have juggling work and, you know, home life. So you know, one thing that I never did was be hard on myself, I always say I was not a normal Mom, you know, a normal mom of what you read in a textbook, you know, always available carpools. And all that carpool did not work for me at all, you know, I would be in Europe. And I'd get a phone call from a carpool mom saying, Can we switch days today. And I'm like, no doubt I set my schedule up based on what you know, we all agree so my mom was a stay at home mom, raising four children. My father was a cardiologist who passed about three years ago. And my mom was an incredible mother, helping on PTA helping with, you know, all this, but she also was a leader in non for profits while she was raising us. And then when we got old enough, she ended up going to work for Pete Wilson. And she was always a journalist always writing, always keeping herself engaged, too busy. But really, my father was the primary breadwinner, and my mother was the primary caregiver. Today, I feel you know, as a parent, I have the same values as I was raised, you know, unconditional love for my children, always wanting them to believe in themselves, wanting them to surround themselves with people that are not all the same, but that everyone feels comfortable with one another, you know, really creating a world of diversity, and getting out of their comfort zone, you know, my kids went to a school that was predominantly safe. And so now being out in the world and going to university, you know, their high schools were more of the, you know, the same people from the community. And then when they went to university they opened up the doors and opened up their horizons a lot, which is terrific, and they all work in different, you know, big fields. So I think same from my parents, unconditional love, confidence, believing in my children, encouraging them to do the same core values, you know, what is important in priorities in life and who you are as a human, not what you do, as you know, for your profession, I think is really important, teaching my children to give back. So very charitable in not just writing a check, but rolling up their sleeves and being very involved. And I think the difference is, my husband and I are dual income, and we share parenting equally, and encouraged both of us to, you know, fulfilled careers as well as you know, fulfilled parenting and soon to be a grandparent,


Farah Nanji  53:57  


oh, congratulations. So, with three of them, sort of being with you shooting the research with three children, that two of them being boys, what have you sort of taught them about women and how to kind of, you know, be changemakers in their own rights for the future generations.


Shelley Zalis  54:16  


As my boys, you know, and my daughter, see that you can achieve whatever you can imagine. And they see by example, my husband and I really are equal partners in the household, you know, we share responsibility. My boys see, you know, a successful CEO that also can have it all as long as you have it all your way and you're willing to do that. So I think that that's what they expect. And that's what they want from their partner. You know, I think they will. They've grown up sharing, seeing that we share the responsibility at home seeing that both parents can have successful careers and seeing we're feeling You know, the unconditional love of being a family and together time and, and choice and focus, and we are very connected family, I grew up chasing total solar eclipses with my family. And so they're big adventures that we don't want to gather, which are life bonding experiences, and why I think we are also connected to one another.


Farah Nanji  55:27  


That's really beautiful. And family really is everything. And we think there's times also, you know, highlighted just how important that is. So I know that you've been very fortunate enough to interview some very prominent figures such as Halle Berry, and Arianna Huffington, to name a few. What has sitting in the interviews chair taught you about? People and yourself?


Shelley Zalis  55:48  


I think it's about being real. You know, and I always say the best experience, the best advice comes from women who have been there done that, you know, it's very hard to talk to a woman that doesn't have a child about how do you do it all, take care of your children and a job, someone else might be great at giving advice on how to negotiate how to find your value, how to close the, you know, the imposter syndrome. In your head, you had all but the best experienced cancer women who have been there done that. So, you know, Arianna Huffington stories, and her life lessons are amazing. Halle Berry talked about, you know, knowing your value and your worth, you know, even as a huge celebrity, you know, there have been times that you know, she has been Dominion ties, or she found out she wasn't treated equally, she was the same equal star, but not getting the same equal billing. I mean, you know, we all have shit in our lives. And the best way to grow and learn is to be honest about it. So what I found really refreshing about both of them was their their realness, just how real and heartfelt and not afraid to share, you know, the good, bad and the ugly, not just the good stuff, because that's where you know, the the great, the best growth comes from, I found that really refreshing.


Farah Nanji  57:09  


That's fantastic. So we're going to move on to the next section, which is some questions that come in from our audience. They're talking about growth and comfort zones. And one actually asks a very interesting question from France about how you like to push yourself out of your comfort zone these days. What are some of the things you'd like to do?


Shelley Zalis  57:29  


I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone every single day, I've just gotten comfortable being uncomfortable. So I think that that's just an acknowledgement, get comfortable being uncomfortable, step one. And number two, bring others with you. Because the power of the collective really, you know, goes a long way to changing legacy, creating the new reality and moving forward. The third is just my mother always says she says giving charity is like wearing a new pair of shoes, the first time you wear them, they pinch, they hurt, but the more you wear, and the more comfortable you get. And I think that's you know, where if you give yourself permission to be bold, brave, fearless, take a giant step forward, go to the unknown. You know, it's when you're building something for the first time, it's scary. So I also have a philosophy that you need to be the first, the second and the third. The first is the innovator. The first is the one that is writing the new script, but no one comes along, no one believes you, there's no echo system, there's no money, you have to make all the mistakes. The second is the copycat they come in the copy, whatever, you know, whatever you've done, but they don't really know what's under the hood. And the third is the sweeper prancing on the white horse to the shiny white horse. And now there's an ecosystem. Now there's money you pick up or someone you know, left off, and you win the game. So for me, I am very comfortable being uncomfortable. But I also know I will be the first, the second and the third. Because there's no way I'm going to be the first to think of something and the last to win. So you know, those are all just guiding principles that are my internal, you know, compass or the North Star just own it. And don't be afraid. And the best thing, the worst thing that could happen is you'll be wrong and make a mistake or get to know the best thing that could happen is you'll get a yes and do something that's never been done before and create a new norm. So that's what I thrive for. I strive and thrive with that.


Farah Nanji  59:32  


That's amazing. So I don't know if you are a fan of Motorsports. But we have a question here from Gene in London. And he asks, What are your thoughts on why there are less females in motorsport? You've I know you've had some quite some great conversations with people in motorsport. So there might be some things you've got


Shelley Zalis  59:51  


great question. You know, what's really amazing about racecar driving is it's equal. There's nothing men Male strength does not do better than, you know, female strength in the car. You know, it's the agility, it's the flexibility which by the way is a great tap for women. So it is one of those sports that is so primed for equal and to have more female everything and you know, not just female drivers, but female mechanics, you know, she can x and women in the business of, you know, motor biking and car racing and you know, Formula One, whatever it is, we have such a big opportunity and we need diversity, we know that diversity is good for business across the board, a couple of things, I'm the co founder see her if you could see her, you could be her. So one of the biggest problems is we need more representation. So if women would just if we started sharing the stories, I share so many stories of female racecar drivers that just encouraged the next generation to go into it. So we need to see more representation because representation equals reflection reflection creates the changes number one, number two that all of our female racecar drivers are waiting for is to start having Tampax on the car like we have predominantly you know male oriented products, how about putting Tampax How about putting you know breast milk you know like you know putting baby's milk or you know putting feminine products lipstick whatever it is changing the perception of what it is so I think that will go a long way to you know changing the equation but visibility storytelling matters a lot and how great would it be to have more feminine brands on cars which already say this is a great sport for women


Farah Nanji  1:01:48  


that's really interesting. I never thought about the the sponsorship role in that sense because I suppose they've made it all look very you know very sort of that you know tech tech tech dominated or or sort of yeah different different things but yeah, there's definitely a huge space for for more female products to to come into the mix I think the furthest they went really was last year with racing point painting the car pink but I'm not quite sure what the impact was in terms of changing anything for women on that front because we don't have a female you know in in Aston Martin now wishes the team but very interesting some some great observations there surely.


Shelley Zalis  1:02:30  


Go back for one second. The more we showcase these stories even Aston Martin Aston Martin has Aston ladies. They have a whole group of women that drive Aston Martin's and I know so many female racecar drivers. Like this is the kind of thing where it's an opportunity. So imagine even if it's racing or green if they put Tampax as sponsor or Pantene or LOreal Lipson, whatever it is, that will change your question doesn't matter what colour the car is, that says something without saying something?


Farah Nanji  1:03:00  


Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, you know, Aston Martin, where it was a brand that has gone or nilton has neared bankruptcy more than seven times in its existence. And so there's there's, you know, clearly been a leadership challenge and a problem but one of the things that I found super interesting and sad actually, because, you know, you know, we all know, or, you know, we you know, we know that women owned Aston Martin's, you know, nothing, no secrets about that, but yet you go to Aston Martin, when you buy when you get, you know, given a tour of the factory, and as a consumer, you know, you want to finish the tour of a factory, you know, you end up in the shop, and you want to buy something right like that you can wear as a proud owner of a new Aston Martin, but there's no, there's no for women, there's actually no merchandise line, which is for a brand in the 21st century. This is, you know, absurd. But anyway, there is new ownership. So let's see where the change goes. Because that is a huge flaw. But okay, so moving on to the final part of our interview quickfire section, no more than like 60 seconds on each question. So the first one is, is that I know that you're a huge fan of chocolate. So if you could pick one chocolate for the rest of your life, and you had to take it on a desert island, what would it be?


Shelley Zalis  1:04:17  


Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.


Farah Nanji  1:04:19  


Okay, done easy. And you're often seen with a book in your hands, what are you reading right now? Or is it something you'd like to really recommend to our listeners? Right now,


Shelley Zalis  1:04:30  


Eve Brodsky fairplay.


Farah Nanji  1:04:33  


Okay, cool. And the third one we're back in Davos, we're opening up the Fq lounge. What song would be playing as all of these incredible people walk in after such a crazy, crazy year?


Shelley Zalis  1:04:46  


This girl is on fire.


Farah Nanji  1:04:49  


Okay, cool. Next one, what are some of your favourite places to see the stars talking about the solar eclipses that you mentioned?


Shelley Zalis  1:04:57  


Oh gosh, you know, these days. My balcony, I go out and I find the brightest star in the sky. That's my father. Oh, I can find him wherever I am. I have chased eclipses everywhere. I mean, the best place to see stars is in total darkness. Weird candidate I just said that. I just interviewed the most incredible human, a pair of a paraplegic a pair, a pair of Olympian. His name is Ezra and what his family says he has a prosthetic leg. And he has two fingers. One is a tow on his left hand. And he's a track and field star gold medalist, he said that without darkness, there are no stars. And I just said, the best place to see stars is when it's pitch black. It's pitch dark outside. So some of the best places are on the side of the road in the desert in Israel. I've been to Galapagos Islands, ghosts, I've been to the Black Sea in Turkey. I've been to China. So we've seen eclipses truly total solar eclipses all over the world. And it's magical.


Farah Nanji  1:06:19  


That's incredible. That is incredible. We are blessed with some of the darkest places here in the UK as well. And it's really just an incredible experience. So the last question is something that we like to ask all of our guests, and that is what are you most grateful for this month?


Shelley Zalis  1:06:41  


My family, so grateful for my family and having the quality time with all of them, and health and happiness and living life? In truth, just really being real and owning the moments and enjoying every moment together.


Farah Nanji  1:07:06  


That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Well, Shelly, thank you so much for coming on today's show. We've had such a great chat.


Shelley Zalis  1:07:16  


You are absolutely amazing. So plan to be with us in Davos 100% 100%. Perfect, we'll follow up soon.


Farah Nanji  1:07:25  


Take care. If there's one theme that's been consistent throughout our guests on mission makers since the get go, it's that we are all equally responsible for levelling the playing field. We all desire and deserve equality in everything that we do. But as Shelly and I talked about assumptions form our perception, and that forms our reality. We don't have to accept things to be the way they are just because everybody else does. That is how the world gets stagnated and innovation gets killed. I was watching the csbc documentary recently on Netflix and if there's one thing I urge you to do this weekend, if you haven't already is to go and watch that documentary. Not only is a great example of how we assume because brands say things are sustainably sourced, we perceive that our products are fair, but it truly highlights how change begins at home and by ourselves first and the consequences if we don't. We've got three more amazing guests coming on the show before this season ends. It's definitely flown by so be sure to share the show with your friends and subscribe to us on Apple Spotify, YouTube and wherever else you listen to your podcast, because you definitely do not want to miss our season closes. Feel free to also reach out to me @missionmakers or @DJ.n1nja on Instagram. And if you're interested in supporting the show and getting some really cool rewards like DJ lessons and life coaching, don't forget to visit and thank you again for listening

Lessons To Fuel Your Mission
  • If you never try, you'll never know 

  • Look for the good in everything, even if you have to try a little harder sometimes

  • To get to the next level, you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable

  • True confidence is not always about being right, but embracing no fear to be wrong


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